IDRlabs Introverted Thinking (Ti) ~ Sakinorva Databank

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IDRlabs Introverted Thinking (Ti)

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IDRlabs Introverted Thinking (Ti) ~ Sakinorva Databank

IDRlabs Introverted Thinking (Ti)

Miscellaneous Culture and Society

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	Woll Smoth 2025/07/07 (Mon) 12:24:47 #10109
	I understand the INFP argument, believe me, I do, and I also am not against the idea of Bjork being INFP as there can certainly be decent case made for it (hence why I didn't vote for Bjork in IDR). However, I also think ISFP is also very possible. Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, here is a potential ISFP argument. With regards to self-expression, IDRlabs have said the following, "as we know from Myers, Jung and van der Hoop, types who have Ne as one of their two top functions (such as INFPs) tend to find self-expression easy. ... By contrast, we know from the same authors that the concepts distilled by Ni tend to have a hard time finding an outwards expression that adequately conveys what is going on inside. ... Of all the 16 types, the ISFP is perhaps the type that is the most at odds with expressing themselves adequately, because of their Fi-Ni axis. But their difficulty with traditional modes of self-expression will frequently be made up for by ingenious modes of alternative self-expression. (Through music, art, design, etc.)" While both Fi-dominant types may often feel that they struggle to do their Fi inner experience justice with regards to self-expression, all else being equal, an ISFP is going to feel that they have a much harder time expressing themselves verbally than an INFP and will see words as inadequate when trying to convey the inner values that they hold inside. That is to say, compared to the INFP, the ISFP (because of the general effect of the combination of Fi-Se-Ni) typically doesn't like talking about their art/actions, as to them the experience/thing/action speaks for itself. For examples of IDR ISFPs: David Bowie: “I had to resign myself, many years ago, that I’m not too articulate when it comes to explaining how I feel about things. But my music does it for me, it really does. There, in the chords and melodies, is everything I want to say. The words just jolly it along. It’s always been my way of expressing what for me is inexpressible by any other means.” Kate Bush: "I really like the idea of my work speaking for me, not me speaking for me. I think my works says a lot more interesting stuff than I ever could and it’s more eloquent, and that is what I feel I have to offer the world. I don’t feel that what I have to say personally is that interesting and it’s not something that I have enthusiasm about, it’s not fun for me – I don’t really enjoy it." Paul McCartney: "I don't like people explaining albums. The only way you can explain it is to hear it. You can't really use words about music, otherwise we'd do a talking album. The album is the explanation, and it's up to you to make sure what you want of it." In this regard Bjork seems more Se-Ni than Ne-Si: Björk: "[On tour I] do them interviews and try to explain something which is actually quite unexplainable, really. You know, I was asked earlier today to name 3 of my favorite albums at the moment and why, and it's just impossible, you know? And music should be that way, you know? It's unexplainable. It's one of the few things we got left in our culture which is not explainable." Björk: "I find it more important to make music than to talk about it." Rose: "My sense about you, in reading and knowing a little about your music, is that you have always been in love with sound - all kinds of sound." Björk: "Yeah." Rose: "Not lyrics, sound?" Björk: "Yeah." Rose: "Right? Tell me about that - all kinds of sounds." Björk: "Yeah, it's just the one most all-embracing, forgiving, understanding thing there is. Just in the full abstraction of it, it doesn't ask any questions, and you don't have to explain yourself. And it's the one world where that can cover all of the emotional levels of you. I'm the sort of person, when it comes to say something like language or just communicating on a daily basis, I feel like I'm trying to put an ocean through a straw. And with music..." Rose: "Because you feel so much, hear so much?" Björk: "Maybe just because I'm not very good at it, you know, but with music, it doesn't feel like that. And it's not only me making music, it's also listening to other people's music that it's just like a warm embrace, you know?" [Interviewer: "Obviously, we all think of you as a musician. So, what do you think of the acting business?"] Björk: "I guess I'm not really impressed, really." [Interviewer: "No?"] Björk: "No." [Interviewer: "You only had one go; it might get better. What didn't you like?"] Björk: "There's too much talking. ... I'm more into singing." One might point out examples of INFPs not liking to elaborately explain their work (like David Lynch) but even in that case one can see David Lynch is much more Si than Se in that his relationship to the empirical world is more refined/personalized/routinized: Rose: "So what do you eating at first, tell me what you're eating?" Lynch: "I'm eating, for lunch, tomatoes, tuna fish, feta cheese, and olive oil." Rose: "Now, here's what's interesting about you, you eat that every day." Lynch: "Every day." Rose: "You eat the same thing?" Lynch: "Yeah, it's very good." Rose: "[laughs] Well I'm sure it is, otherwise we wouldn't eat it every day." Lynch: "Right, exactly." Rose: "What do you eat for dinner?" Lynch: "Chicken... little pieces of chicken and broccoli and a little soy sauce." Rose: "Every day?" Lynch: "Yeah, everyday except when I travel, then I go off that." Rose: "Can we say you're a creature of habit? Lynch: "Yes, habit in the daily routine ... when there's some sort of order there then you're free to mentally go [to] any place, you've got a safe sort of foundation and a place to spring off. ... The purer the environment, the more fantastic the interior world can be, it seems to me." By contrast Bjork's relation to the empirical world is much more visceral/direct/dynamic: Björk: "What's kind of always truly been ... where my heart is, is making music and ... sounds, noises, and surroundings that I find exciting and interest me. While being a singer is mostly like a bit of a tool to be able to do that." Björk: "All these people who say cars are so ugly, pollution’s so terrible—it’s true, but if you don’t want to live here then move into the forest. And if you are gonna live here, you might as well accept it and make the most out of it.” I'll admit, if Björk is an ISFP type then she is a really weird S type (and by "weird" I don't mean eccentric behavior as that's a terrible way to distinguish S vs N, but rather Björk has a lot of traits that one wouldn't expect from an S type). Not an expert in the Big 5 by any means but I'd wager she's probably higher in openness to experience than the average ISFP, similar to Bowie and Enya.

Editing post #10109 by Woll Smoth I understand the INFP argument, believe me, I do, and I also am not against the idea of Bjork being INFP as there can certainly be decent case made for it (hence why I didn't vote for Bjork in IDR). However, I also think ISFP is also very possible. Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, here is a potential ISFP argument. With regards to self-expression, IDRlabs have said the following, "as we know from Myers, Jung and van der Hoop, types who have Ne as one of their two top functions (such as INFPs) tend to find self-expression easy. ... By contrast, we know from the same authors that the concepts distilled by Ni tend to have a hard time finding an outwards expression that adequately conveys what is going on inside. ... Of all the 16 types, the ISFP is perhaps the type that is the most at odds with expressing themselves adequately, because of their Fi-Ni axis. But their difficulty with traditional modes of self-expression will frequently be made up for by ingenious modes of alternative self-expression. (Through music, art, design, etc.)" While both Fi-dominant types may often feel that they struggle to do their Fi inner experience justice with regards to self-expression, all else being equal, an ISFP is going to feel that they have a much harder time expressing themselves verbally than an INFP and will see words as inadequate when trying to convey the inner values that they hold inside. That is to say, compared to the INFP, the ISFP (because of the general effect of the combination of Fi-Se-Ni) typically doesn't like talking about their art/actions, as to them the experience/thing/action speaks for itself. For examples of IDR ISFPs: David Bowie: “I had to resign myself, many years ago, that I’m not too articulate when it comes to explaining how I feel about things. But my music does it for me, it really does. There, in the chords and melodies, is everything I want to say. The words just jolly it along. It’s always been my way of expressing what for me is inexpressible by any other means.” Kate Bush: "I really like the idea of my work speaking for me, not me speaking for me. I think my works says a lot more interesting stuff than I ever could and it’s more eloquent, and that is what I feel I have to offer the world. I don’t feel that what I have to say personally is that interesting and it’s not something that I have enthusiasm about, it’s not fun for me – I don’t really enjoy it." Paul McCartney: "I don't like people explaining albums. The only way you can explain it is to hear it. You can't really use words about music, otherwise we'd do a talking album. The album is the explanation, and it's up to you to make sure what you want of it." In this regard Bjork seems more Se-Ni than Ne-Si: Björk: "[On tour I] do them interviews and try to explain something which is actually quite unexplainable, really. You know, I was asked earlier today to name 3 of my favorite albums at the moment and why, and it's just impossible, you know? And music should be that way, you know? It's unexplainable. It's one of the few things we got left in our culture which is not explainable." Björk: "I find it more important to make music than to talk about it." Rose: "My sense about you, in reading and knowing a little about your music, is that you have always been in love with sound - all kinds of sound." Björk: "Yeah." Rose: "Not lyrics, sound?" Björk: "Yeah." Rose: "Right? Tell me about that - all kinds of sounds." Björk: "Yeah, it's just the one most all-embracing, forgiving, understanding thing there is. Just in the full abstraction of it, it doesn't ask any questions, and you don't have to explain yourself. And it's the one world where that can cover all of the emotional levels of you. I'm the sort of person, when it comes to say something like language or just communicating on a daily basis, I feel like I'm trying to put an ocean through a straw. And with music..." Rose: "Because you feel so much, hear so much?" Björk: "Maybe just because I'm not very good at it, you know, but with music, it doesn't feel like that. And it's not only me making music, it's also listening to other people's music that it's just like a warm embrace, you know?" [Interviewer: "Obviously, we all think of you as a musician. So, what do you think of the acting business?"] Björk: "I guess I'm not really impressed, really." [Interviewer: "No?"] Björk: "No." [Interviewer: "You only had one go; it might get better. What didn't you like?"] Björk: "There's too much talking. ... I'm more into singing." One might point out examples of INFPs not liking to elaborately explain their work (like David Lynch) but even in that case one can see David Lynch is much more Si than Se in that his relationship to the empirical world is more refined/personalized/routinized: Rose: "So what do you eating at first, tell me what you're eating?" Lynch: "I'm eating, for lunch, tomatoes, tuna fish, feta cheese, and olive oil." Rose: "Now, here's what's interesting about you, you eat that every day." Lynch: "Every day." Rose: "You eat the same thing?" Lynch: "Yeah, it's very good." Rose: "[laughs] Well I'm sure it is, otherwise we wouldn't eat it every day." Lynch: "Right, exactly." Rose: "What do you eat for dinner?" Lynch: "Chicken... little pieces of chicken and broccoli and a little soy sauce." Rose: "Every day?" Lynch: "Yeah, everyday except when I travel, then I go off that." Rose: "Can we say you're a creature of habit? Lynch: "Yes, habit in the daily routine ... when there's some sort of order there then you're free to mentally go [to] any place, you've got a safe sort of foundation and a place to spring off. ... The purer the environment, the more fantastic the interior world can be, it seems to me." By contrast Bjork's relation to the empirical world is much more visceral/direct/dynamic: Björk: "What's kind of always truly been ... where my heart is, is making music and ... sounds, noises, and surroundings that I find exciting and interest me. While being a singer is mostly like a bit of a tool to be able to do that." Björk: "All these people who say cars are so ugly, pollution’s so terrible—it’s true, but if you don’t want to live here then move into the forest. And if you are gonna live here, you might as well accept it and make the most out of it.” I'll admit, if Björk is an ISFP type then she is a really weird S type (and by "weird" I don't mean eccentric behavior as that's a terrible way to distinguish S vs N, but rather Björk has a lot of traits that one wouldn't expect from an S type). Not an expert in the Big 5 by any means but I'd wager she's probably higher in openness to experience than the average ISFP, similar to Bowie and Enya.
Replying to post #10109 by Woll Smoth

	Woll Smoth 2025/07/07 (Mon) 09:14:32 #10107
	I suggest IDRlabs move Joe Biden from ENFJ to ESFJ: I agree that Joe Biden is Fe dominant, but I won't go too deep into that territory and will mostly focus on the S and N distinction (as well as Si and Ni). For starters, I think his N is too low to be one of his uppermost functions, semi-conscious N makes a lot more sense. As IDRlabs has said in their basic general portrait of ENFJs, “the ENFJ tends to have an intellectual, even scholarly, side which they use to delve into abstract problems concerning the whole of society, if not the world. In truth, most ENFJs are quite comfortable juggling complex facts and challenging situations that require a firm grasp of the theory involved.” This "intellectual" and "abstract" side of the ENFJ is in no small part due to their auxiliary Ni, which is arguably the most abstract function imo. Anyway back to Joe Biden, there seems to be much more evidence of him not being oriented towards the abstract: The Atlantic: “Though plenty smart, Biden is not an intellectual. He makes few references to books and learned influences in his speeches and autobiography, and he displays little interest in theory. An indifferent student at the University of Delaware and Syracuse University College of Law—he describes the latter as 'boring'—Biden got by with prodigious cramming sessions. Today, by contrast, he is described by Tony Blinken, Biden’s national-security adviser, as a compulsive studier who likes to be overbriefed." Howard Fineman: “Biden is not an academic, he's not a theoretical thinker, he's a great street pol." Regarding Si specifically, some quotes about Biden where I find that Fe supported by Si (meticulous, practical) makes more sense than Fe supported by Ni (ideational, holistic): The Atlantic: “The guideposts in Biden’s political landscape are often not ideas, but people. Many of the world leaders with whom the United States has business are men and women he has known for years, even decades. In fall 2009, for example, after Obama had decided to abandon plans to build land-based missile defenses in eastern Europe—a move interpreted as a concession to Moscow—the White House sent Biden on a three-day swing through Poland, Romania, and the Czech Republic to reassure the leaders of those countries that their security would not be compromised. Biden had mastered the details of the issue—the virtues of sea-based anti-missile technology versus land-based, and so on—but his most important asset was that he knew many of the leaders personally.” This last point isn't going to be my strongest point but it is something to consider. IDRlabs defines Si as "a way of perceiving psychic material by way of past impressions that have been subjectively associated with the outer occurrence at hand, causing the subject to experience deep and ineffable qualities in even ordinary sensations." Here is another quote from Mark Bowden from The Atlantic about Joe Biden that seems to suggest that Joe Biden could have a preference for Si: The Atlantic: “In his personal life, Biden could hardly be more traditional. In the scruffy ’60s, when so many young men of his generation went unkempt as a social and political statement, Biden dressed up for class in college, sometimes wearing a tie. He says his first wife, Neilia, described him as ‘the most socially conservative man she had ever known.’” One might interpret Joe Biden being "traditional" and "socially conservative" is a result of the subjective significance in the routines he has become accustomed to.

Editing post #10107 by Woll Smoth I suggest IDRlabs move Joe Biden from ENFJ to ESFJ: I agree that Joe Biden is Fe dominant, but I won't go too deep into that territory and will mostly focus on the S and N distinction (as well as Si and Ni). For starters, I think his N is too low to be one of his uppermost functions, semi-conscious N makes a lot more sense. As IDRlabs has said in their basic general portrait of ENFJs, “the ENFJ tends to have an intellectual, even scholarly, side which they use to delve into abstract problems concerning the whole of society, if not the world. In truth, most ENFJs are quite comfortable juggling complex facts and challenging situations that require a firm grasp of the theory involved.” This "intellectual" and "abstract" side of the ENFJ is in no small part due to their auxiliary Ni, which is arguably the most abstract function imo. Anyway back to Joe Biden, there seems to be much more evidence of him not being oriented towards the abstract: The Atlantic: “Though plenty smart, Biden is not an intellectual. He makes few references to books and learned influences in his speeches and autobiography, and he displays little interest in theory. An indifferent student at the University of Delaware and Syracuse University College of Law—he describes the latter as 'boring'—Biden got by with prodigious cramming sessions. Today, by contrast, he is described by Tony Blinken, Biden’s national-security adviser, as a compulsive studier who likes to be overbriefed." Howard Fineman: “Biden is not an academic, he's not a theoretical thinker, he's a great street pol." Regarding Si specifically, some quotes about Biden where I find that Fe supported by Si (meticulous, practical) makes more sense than Fe supported by Ni (ideational, holistic): The Atlantic: “The guideposts in Biden’s political landscape are often not ideas, but people. Many of the world leaders with whom the United States has business are men and women he has known for years, even decades. In fall 2009, for example, after Obama had decided to abandon plans to build land-based missile defenses in eastern Europe—a move interpreted as a concession to Moscow—the White House sent Biden on a three-day swing through Poland, Romania, and the Czech Republic to reassure the leaders of those countries that their security would not be compromised. Biden had mastered the details of the issue—the virtues of sea-based anti-missile technology versus land-based, and so on—but his most important asset was that he knew many of the leaders personally.” This last point isn't going to be my strongest point but it is something to consider. IDRlabs defines Si as "a way of perceiving psychic material by way of past impressions that have been subjectively associated with the outer occurrence at hand, causing the subject to experience deep and ineffable qualities in even ordinary sensations." Here is another quote from Mark Bowden from The Atlantic about Joe Biden that seems to suggest that Joe Biden could have a preference for Si: The Atlantic: “In his personal life, Biden could hardly be more traditional. In the scruffy ’60s, when so many young men of his generation went unkempt as a social and political statement, Biden dressed up for class in college, sometimes wearing a tie. He says his first wife, Neilia, described him as ‘the most socially conservative man she had ever known.’” One might interpret Joe Biden being "traditional" and "socially conservative" is a result of the subjective significance in the routines he has become accustomed to.
Replying to post #10107 by Woll Smoth

date	username	vote
25/07/07 09:14	Woll Smoth	ISFP